Podcast - Episode 3
Okay, everybody, welcome to actually my third episode of my podcast, parenting Neurodiverse teens and Young Adults, and I have with me today an awesome guest.
Shari Murray, who I've known for many years, her and I were working for a company called Homeward Bound for, well, really since 2013. Mm-hmm. And that's where we had a lot of parenting adventures, going into family's homes and working with them directly, and then coaching them. For, uh, up to four months and beyond, uh, beyond the home visit.
And so just really helping support parents, primarily transitioning home from having, I mean, having a teen transition home from a treatment program, so just helping them reintegrate back into the home. Shari and I have, uh, also another common interest, which is working with neurodivergent, teens and young adults.
So, Shari, welcome. Why don't you introduce a little bit about your background and tell us a bit more [00:03:00] about yourself and, uh, as for the audience's benefit? Certainly. Um, so as Ed said, my name is Shari Murray. Um, yeah, ed and I have known each other for 12 years now, actually, probably closer to 13. Um. Not that that matters.
Um, # I am both a, uh, social worker and a marriage and family therapist by training. Um, worked, um, in and out of mental health. Um, but for the last 13 years, I have, uh, been exclusively with, with Homeward Bound as Ed said, um, doing that transition work with families and I kind of. share The, uh, opportunities to work with, um, kids on the spectrum.
I'm also the mother to a 27-year-old. Oh my gosh. Um, young adult with, um, autism. He is level two. Autism, a little different than most. Um, but so I have been [00:04:00] there, done that. So a lot of my coaching comes probably more so from my personal experience than, yeah. Necessarily the professional training, but the combination of the two has been really helpful.
So that's me. Yeah, and, and I think, you know, Shari that's an amazing part of your story is, you know, really having that fundamental experience of being a parent and having to go through that. And, you know, probably at levels that, uh, you know, certainly a lot of parents, um, are dealing with for sure out there.
Um, but. So I think, yeah, I just, I don't know want to acknowledge that that is an amazing part of your story and also, um, really I think gives you insights into parenting that obviously no one that hasn't done it would necessarily have. Right. So, and I think where it's been like the most helpful, um, in terms of kind of transitioning or translating my personal experience into that professional space is.[00:05:00]
I know what it's like to have a bunch of professionals throw a bunch of stuff at you and then never asking, well, is that going to work for you? Does that work in your house? Does that work with your kid? It's just, here's all the stuff and you're supposed to do it. And so I have found that it's been really helpful for me when, when I'm coaching a family and I'm suggesting anything.
My next question is always. Hey, does that even feel like you could do that? Does that feel doable? Workable? Is that how your kid works? Because just having a professional just blah, a bunch of stuff at you all the time doesn't really do much, so I Yeah. So I Have some thoughts. Yeah.
Always super helpful. Everybody seems to have an opinion for sure, but you know, yes, they certainly do. No idea what's going on behind the scenes and, you know, and how much, uh, you're, you're having to do to, to make things work. So. So, yeah, I really appreciate that. I appreciate your efforts in that area and your understanding and everything that you shared with me over the years has been helpful.
Um, so yeah, I don't know.
We [00:06:00] were talking beforehand about what we'd like to talk about today, and you have a pretty good example that you like to use that comes from your own personal experience. And it kind of highlights this idea of, uh, like control. Versus predictability and, uh, trying to understand kind of the nuances of that when you're working with a Neurodivergent Child or teen or young adult, and this goes all the way. I mean, you can say neurodivergent child, child, that means young child to adolescent, to preteen, to adolescent, to young adults, adults, 27 years old Yep. It all still and beyond, right? Yeah, for sure. That all still works. Yeah. Um, yeah, so I dunno, why don't we jump on into that?
I mean, I don't know if you want to just tell the story or how you want to work up to it or... so my son... So if he's in the car with me and we're driving down the road and I realize, oh, you know, gas is low, I need to stop and get gas. If I [00:07:00] just pull into the gas station, um, with no notice, with no sorry, there's my cat with nothing else, just I pull in and go get gas.
Um, it will immediately. Devolve is probably the best word, into at least 15 minutes of kind of panic on his part. Um, definitely anxiety would be the way I would describe it, but it's just, what are we doing? Why are we doing this? Do you need get, and he just gets so worked up. Um, right. And in my head I'm like, dude, I'm just getting gas.
Like, it's not that big a deal. Um, in fact, we've, we've probably done this like a hundred times, right? Yeah, right. We've done it a million times and it's the same thing every time and. It used to bug me. 'cause he would be like, why are we doing this? And I'm like, because I need gas. And [00:08:00] it just felt like he was trying to kind of control everything, where we went, what we did, how we did it, when we did it, kind of all those things.
And, and kind of thinking about it. And what I realized is just any sort of variation in what we were doing. Um, anything that he didn't predict. So anything that was uncertain and yes, going to the gas station when we're supposed to be driving home is uncertain and unpredictable for him.
If I, once I realize that, once I realize, hey, that's what's going on with him. He's not trying to be a jerk. He's not just like, I just want to get home. That's right. He's just anxious. He's just. Freaking out over going to gas station. And what I realized with him at least was like five seconds before I'm going to pull in, I can just say, Hey buddy, I've gotta get gas.[00:09:00]
I'm going to go to the gas station now. He will have to verify, he has to look at my gas gauge and make sure that yes, in fact he's not trying to pull something on him or whatever. Yeah. That I'm just goofing with him. He likes to verify. Um, he trusts what verifies every time he looks at it, he sees that it's, it's low and he'll, he has some phrases.
He's kind of still into Thomas the tank engine, so it's not about going up hills. Um, but you know, then he's fine. And then we pull into the gas station and his first question is, you know, can I help? Can he do it? And of course, um, but just that little kind of piece of predictability, game changer, like it, it, it really kind of fixed everything and that situation and helped him.
I mean, he still has to right verify, he still has to go through a process, but it's not panic [00:10:00] anymore. It's just. Oh, okay. I can do this. I know what, I know what that is and this is how I do it. Right. I know to go help and get gas and I think that's kind of his way of working through that uncertainty.
Isn't that amazing how just a little, it kind of seems like a seemingly little adjustment from our Neurotypical points of view or whatever, but man, the outcome of that is very different, right? From total panic, flipping out, you know, uh, asking a lot of questions. Really, really, you know, not going to be able to seemingly tolerate the, the stop or something like that.
Yeah. To almost switching, to wanting to cooperate even at that point, right? Yeah. To help out or to be a part of it. Yeah, it's like, okay. Totally cool. Um, and I know not every kid, you know, does well with just, you know, a ten second heads up, but, and for the most part he doesn't either. That's one scenario where just a, a little bit of heads up works, but just recognizing that, yeah, the [00:11:00] world is kind of a crazy, unpredictable place, um, for kids with, you know.
Autism, autism, similar anxiety kind of type issues that anything that varies from what they expect is, is so big and it doesn't take that much on our part to, to make it easier for them.
So let's talk about that for a minute, because again, I, I think you were bringing it up and you and I have talked about this kind of stuff before.
The idea of how you interpret that as a parent, right? Like how important is it that first step of recognizing, oh wait a minute, this isn't them trying to control or bully or get their way or just be a jerk, or, you know, whatever. I mean this is a full on emotional overwhelm, right? Yeah. And that is, so again, your perception as a parent to say, okay, um, what's really happening here?
And it's hard because we talk about that getting pulled into your downstairs brain [00:12:00] that fight, flight or freeze. You know, your son is kicked into that mode once he starts to panic, right? So his Even his higher cognitive functioning goes down and then it pulls you into that too, and you start to panic, like, oh, I gotta get gas.
Is this gonna happen? Is it gonna be a wreck? What are people gonna think when I pull into the gas station? Or is he gonna' yelling into the backseat? Yeah. Yeah. Is he gonna run out of the car? I mean, what, what's gonna happen here? Um. So it's easy to get yourself caught up into that, uh, fight, flight or freeze or downstairs brain or however you want to refer.
You get activated emotionally, so to speak. Um, and that's a whole nother topic we could go to really in depth. Yeah. But, but I think it's that it's parents stuck in their own stories, um, their own beliefs about what's going on. Right. And if you're convinced my kid is just kind of being a jerk or just trying to control everything, they're just so bossy.
Right. You're automatically gonna have kind of this negative kind of reaction back [00:13:00] towards them and Right. Particularly if they're just being a jerk or they're just poking at me. Right. Then you kind of want to get back at them, or you want to assert even more control because, well, I'm the parent and I'm in control, and then they just push back more because the anxiety is getting bigger for them.
You can't see and it's like they're being disrespectful. Yeah. They can't, they're not, they can't disrespect me. Like as a parent, I can't allow this, you know, I mean, all the thoughts start going through the head, right? Yeah. Like, and right. And then you just get that drive to correct and right. And then you end up probably saying a million more things.
And if you can remember that your poor kid with autism or anything similar. Right. They're still processing probably the first couple things you said, and if you've just added 10 more things on there, they're just trying to play catch up and where, what they're still reacting to and what you're now reacting [00:14:00] to are, you know, 10 sentences apart and, and that, and they just haven't caught up yet.
And we just have to give them that space. And, and again, when you can think about, oh. They're just trying to understand what's going on. They're just trying to get some clarity here. Right. Yeah. Again, I don't feel so need to correct. Right. Then I can. I think it just makes you softer and Yeah, for sure.
I think if, uh, you know, again, big takeaway for parents out there is just that idea of if you can stay calm, then you've got a better chance, right? So, yeah. Um, because yeah, I, I call that like emotional co-regulation, right? Like, if you can stay calm, then you can help your son or daughter calm down. But if you've lost it, then you're adding fuel to the fire.
You're just making everybody panic more, right? So get angry, right? It makes it bigger than it needs to be. And, and it's usually the. Parents who are fueling that fire [00:15:00] because we're coming from that kind of faulty perception that the reason our kid is doing that thing is because something's wrong or they're being bad or, yeah.
Or it's willful, like it's a choice. Right. They're just being oppositional They're meaning to do it. Yeah. That they're may be, may getting gas. Yeah. And they just want go home because they want to get back to their video games or whatever and they just want to get back to their room or they want to you know, and, and yeah.
They need to get back to where it's safe. Yeah. And you're like, I do so much for you. Can you just let me get some gas? I don't even like going to the gas station. Don't want to for this isn't fun for me either. Right. So, yeah. Isn't that the joy of my life is gas-getting but, so can you please? Yeah. I mean, so it's not to caught up into.
Um, that I think as a parent in those situations.
But again, like I said, the mindset shift, if we can recognize or be mindful or aware that okay, he is really panicked, or this is really hard for him or her,
and, um, you know,so let's talk about that. Like, why is it harder for a kid on the autism spectrum [00:16:00] or, you know, with, uh, even adhd or other, uh, you know, nonverbal learning, disorder all the, all the neurodivergent things.
Um, you know, let, let's, so why is that, like, why is it harder? Like what, what makes that harder? I think their nervous system is just, and I hate to generalize, but generally speaking it's true. Um, their nervous systems are, are pretty reactive and anxious. Like they're kind of Right. And if you think about that threshold of Right, go back to the fight or flight example that you were using.
Right. If that threshold is here, you know, most of us kind of sit down here, most of the time a neurodivergent kid sits right on that line. All the time. And it, it doesn't take that much to, to push them. Um, and again, it's not provoking them, it's just their nervous systems are already kind of primed to, to panic, to [00:17:00] be anxious about what in our brains is like.
No big deal, but it's real to them. That panic of, I don't know how this is going to turn out. Like, I don't know what's happening. Um, if your nervous system is so primed to, to flip into that kind of fight or flight space, right? Things are scary and it's uncertain and yeah, for them it's just even worse. I mean, and think about as an adult.
If you're neurotypical, if you're going into something that is uncertain, you're anxious too. Right? Um, now imagine that everything feels that way all the time. Yeah. You're going to want to put some controls in place too
Yeah. Yeah. No, I think a good that as a, as a neurotypical goal or whatever, like if you're going into, say a meeting that you're really anxious about, but then you spill your coffee or, or you know what I mean?
Or somebody else, a coworker comes up and has [00:18:00] a question for you that's urgent or you get a phone call or, so, you know what I mean? That kind stuff can dysregulate us as well. Yeah. But it's like probably more like that for them. Just going day to day. Right. And uh, yeah, I think that, you know, the sensory sensitivities are so high that they're spending so much effort and energy just to tune stuff out.
Or ignore that itchy tag on their shirt or, you know what I mean? Or deal with wearing shoes or hearing all those weird noise, you know, or whatever. And you know, the lights are bright or whatever, you know what I mean? So all that kind of stuff, I think has taken up a lot of their coping. Energy.
Right. Or, uh, ability to try to stay calm-ish Yeah. I'm glad you brought up that sensory piece because I think that's often a piece that gets overlooked. I mean, my son was diagnosed at like age three, so we had a, a huge head start on that. But I know for parents who are, are getting diagnosis when, when kids are 14, 15.
You're, you're kind of catching up and I, I think [00:19:00] people overlook that sensory piece. And I, I think my best way of explaining what I imagine that sensory overload to be is, is thinking about every sensory input as being on 10. I mean, right now I'm sitting in my office, I can see out of the corner of my eye that there are pigeons on my roof and they're flapping around, but Right.
My brain knows, don't pay attention to the pigeons. But now you have to, because you mentioned them, so now you can't, pigeons, pigeons over there. Um, don't think the pink elephant either, right? Oh, look right. But I can hear like my, the fan of my computer's running right now. I can hear that. The air conditioning's on where I'm at.
My, you know, my dogs are down here. There's a million pieces of information coming into my head right now, but my brain knows how to ignore pigeons and just put that fan in the background. But for kids with those sensory overload kind of issue, right? Every piece of that sensory information is coming [00:20:00] in at full volume.
Um, the pigeons are right there and it's hard to ignore them, and the sound is there. And if, if you can't quiet all that stuff down. How are you ever going to listen to anything your parent has to say, number one. Um, because that's just one more piece getting in there. So, right. They're spending so much energy kind of sorting through all that noise all the time that, you know, I think just right understanding, again, they need more time to make things predictable.
That man is a parent. We have to recognize that and then slow it.
down and Um, one of the coaches that Ed and I work with right. Talks about, right. You have, you have three sentences to say what you need to say, like, keep it short, keep it concise. Stop over explaining. Stop trying to talk them out of why they're right. We're just [00:21:00] going to the gas station. It's no big deal. Don't be worried about right.
Yeah. Someone telling you to not be worried or don't be angry, that doesn't go too well for me. Right? Yeah. Or someone like, but I'm upset that you're telling me just not to be angry. Yeah. This is upsetting. Yeah. And if we can give space, but again, that might not be upsetting to us, but it is to them. Yeah.
Right. It's real to, it's real to them and, right. Just give them that time. Say the thing. Give them a minute. Kind of work through it and prepare for it. Like we're talking about, like trying to tune out all of that noise again, like that um, we learned to do as adults or whatever, or neurotypicals, it's easier for us to do.
Um. But you know, so I think that is keeping them on the edge a little bit and then any kind of like change in what they're anticipating. Right. This is where the front loading, you're talking about, Hey, we're going to go to the gas station. This is a change in plans. I'm going to give you as much notice as I can.
You know, so you can wrap your head around that. Yeah, because the processing speed, we could talk about that too. [00:22:00] Generally. It just takes more time because again, think about all the noise, and I think that's part of it. There's a new piece of information. It's have got a nudge out all the other sensory stuff that's happening.
They have got a attend to it. And then kind of think through what that means and, you know, uh, I guess verify whether you really do need gas or not. I mean, you know, those are the kind of things Yeah. That need to happen, right. Um, so I think, like I said, given time and space and recognizing that one. New chunk of information can be like the, the Jenga you pull, you know, or add, guess this could be adding something that then Causes it to fall. Right. I guess putting the Jenga on the top or something else. Yes. You have to put that piece back up top somewhat, and I forget where I read it and I, I apologize that I can't credit where the source was, but it was really helpful for me to, to read about that. Neurodivergent kids tend to process things.
Linearly. It's one thing at a time. They have to do this one before they can do the next one. And in my head I always envision like the checkout lane, [00:23:00] right? And you got your little. You know, scanner thing that has to, you know, beep at everything, right? You can't show 15 things across that thing at the same, same time, I guess we just run a cart through the line and everything's just saying, guess all what's in here?
Look at all this stuff's. There's your million dollar idea or billion dollar idea. Yes. That's why there I could do it. Right? You have to do, they have to do one thing at a time and they, they have to process that. First piece before they can do the next piece. And that takes time. And so we have to anticipate what are, where are those pieces that they're probably going to get stuck, right?
What are the things, right? I know, do I need gas? He is going to look at the gas gauge. I have got a you know, allow him to look at that. I've got a tell him, you know, a minute ahead of time. If we as parents, we have to anticipate what are all the places that could get them [00:24:00] stuck? What's that one more item that they have to scan across before you know they're ready for the next piece of information and then, right.
That really teaches us what do we need to say? When do we need to say it? You know, how far in advance all the options and that that's on us as the parent. Um, to anticipate for them, and you use the word front loading, right? It's how much can I give them ahead of time without being too much, um, to, to overload them on that piece, but Right.
Just the basics. Here's the irony of this kinda work, right? Because one, you don't want to over front load or that can cause a meltdown, right? So it's have got a be, yeah, it's gotta be the right amount of front loading, the right amount without saying like, yeah, because if you're starting off, we're going to the grocery store, Hey, by the way, I'm goint to do this, this, this, and then we're going to come home.
I'm going to do this, this, and this and this. Ah, it's too much information, right? Trying to scan things through, right. Trying to scan too much stuff through at the same time.
[00:25:00] Um, but I look. It's kinda the same idea of the scanning, the grocery items, ideas that kind of details up processing. Um, it, you know, in my experience at least, that idea of having to like, examine all the details that then come to a conclusion about what it is they're thinking about or what decisions they have to make or, or what the day's going to look like.
So it's different where a neurotypical will look at the big picture first and then drill down into details if necessary. So like, if we walk into a room. We might be able to say, oh, that's that person, that person, that person. And everybody's sitting down and writing. So I should come in quiet and sit down and write without going.
Um, you walk into a room and see why is there six pieces of paper on the table? Why do people have pencils in their hands? Why, you know, whatever. Right? Kind of. Yeah. Why is that person sitting in by seat conclusion that, oh, we're taking a test today, or something like that. Right. Um, so, so the, I guess the one of those call a superpower or a, a potential.[00:26:00]
Benefit of that is being very detailed, focused and being able to see things differently that if a neurotypical person kinda comes in, we make a lot of assumptions, right? Our brain screens, a lot of things, a lot of information, like you're saying, all the stimulus that's around you right now, your brain can filter that and maybe the pigeons are about to do something really scary and
you would not pay attention But the idea of. You know, we may, you know, we come in and just make some assumptions about what's happening, and most of the time that's probably accurate. But, uh, it's a, it's cognitively efficient to do that, right. To, yeah, tune out a lot of stuff, make assumptions, and then move forward. And then if there's something really unusual, then we'll focus in on that and kind of drill down into the detail.
Whereas, you know, Neurodivergent um, kids or young adults or. Adults or it's harder, it's, it's like have got a process what's happening, detail by detail first, and then build the picture, so to speak. Yeah. And again, uh, for problem solving and things like that, that can be really, [00:27:00] really helpful if you have the time, uh, to, to solve a problem.
That's probably a really efficient way to do it in terms of accuracy, uh, but it's not as cognitively efficient in terms of just coming in and making some assumptions and moving on. Um, so I do think it's part of that on the edge, uh, cognitively and sensorially all the time. Like there's just so much information that has to be dealt with.
So I think that's probably some of the time why changing routines is so hard. Like they had anticipated, they already done all the work, they built the, the model in their head about what's going to happen and then all of a sudden here comes a new, new piece of information that doesn't fit into their plan or what they anticipated.
The, the day go go like, or the the hour to go like, or the minute to go like, right. Yeah. Like, yeah. And I think it's really, I, I love how I use that same example, kind of big picture to detail and then detail to big picture. Um, so think about right, if you are processing things one at a time, and if, [00:28:00] if you're going into a situation thinking it's going to turn out this way, here's the five things that I've already processed that, you know, I know if you've thrown a new thing in there.
It's not just that one new thing that they have to process. They now have to kind of start over, rebuild the whole ship kinda thing. Figure where that, yeah, where that fits. And they kind of have to re-scan all the groceries, if you will, um, to figure out how does this work, what does this impact and does this one new factor then change anything else?
And if it does, then what's, what are the potential outcomes for, for that? And kind of working through all those scenarios. Again, our brains a neurotypical brain can do that because we're also not so worried about what that new outcome, right. We feel. We probably are equipped to handle whatever kind of new input just came at us.
Um, they don't feel that confident. Yeah. I mean, again, like I said, it's a lot of work to get where they're at lot of work and to stay where they're at. Right. So [00:29:00] it's, yeah. And that's exhausting. Think about how exhausting, like how much just mental energy it takes, um, to kind of get through that. And that alone is going to Right.
Put you closer to that edge of, of pushing over. So. I think we just have to be patient and compassionate and Right. No matter how frustrating it is on the parent side of things, guarantee you it's way harder on their end. Yeah, and again, I, that is one of those golden things that a parents can hang on to and understand.
Like as hard as this is for me, this is, they're having a way worse day than I'm right now. Way harder time. Right. Yeah. I'm just frustrated with, with Right. My kid in that moment. But my kid is frustrated by whatever that situation is, and now my kid has to be frustrated with me because I'm frustrated, right.
And I'm just making it. Not, only are you a [00:30:00] variable that's intruding on them, but you are a caustic variable. Yeah, hostile variable. At that point, I'm here. Yeah. You're creating the problem. Right. So, and I think it's good. I mean, I, I think that's a way to think about it. Um, you know, we used to talk about kind of that paramedic response of like, how can I make this worse?
Right. And then, okay, don't do that. I know when I say this particular thing or if I, right, if I don't give my kid that heads up at the gas station, I know I've just made the next 15 minutes worse for everybody. Um, so I have to always be aware, Hey, what do I need to do to help this go right, or well, or as smoothly as possible?
And yeah, what do I need to avoid doing? And, you know, again, in all fairness to parents, it's a lot of work to be always anticipating, right? Yeah. And, and sometimes you just, you don't, you learn by trial and error. You've run into a situation you haven't seen [00:31:00] before. Oh, wow. That, yeah, that was a landmine.
There's a landmine over there. I didn't know it. We stepped on it. Yeah. Didn't see it. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you didn't know the gas station was going to be a problem then. You wouldn't think to do that, and then all of a sudden you like, oh, this is a problem. And so maybe next time you try to adjust. But yeah, so that is a lot of work.
Yeah. You remember, you remember, oh, gas station. Big problem. Yeah. My son used to hate the dividers. We were using the grocery store. He used to hate the dividers in the grocery store, like between the two orders. And it took me a million years to figure that one out because I was like, why would that bother him?
But it did. So I just had to like ask people like please don't the divider there. Yeah, that one was a hard one too. That was a total landmine that I did not see. Yeah. Yeah. So you never know. And again, and it's, it speaks to how it's so different for each kid too, even within the, Within the autism spectrum or the neurodivergent.
Just because ADVICE a, a vice works for one thing, or something's triggering for one kid doesn't mean it's going to be triggering Yeah. For another kid. And, you know, again, it's so unique. So that idea of, I think I like talking about it, like, [00:32:00] you have to gain like a, a knowledge of what neurodiversity means. Or Neurodivergence means so that you can then figure out how it applies to your particular son or daughter.
Because again, um, you know, traditional parenting stuff is, you know, kind of out the window. But, but, um, even if you're approaching a. Your son or daughter with a neurodivergent informed parenting mindset, so to speak, by understanding where some of these struggles are coming from or whatever that, that, then you have to figure out, okay, well how does it, how does that now work?
You know what I mean? For my kids. Yeah. And, and that's always the first thing I recommend parents do. Like, particularly if you're getting that autism diagnosis or ADHD diagnosis, whatever that diagnosis is, if you're getting it later on. The burden on parents is kind of twofold, like you're saying, right?
You need to understand, generally speaking, Hey, where'd that diagnosis come from? Why does my kid meet those criteria? Um, again, big picture. [00:33:00] And then the parents do have to drill in on the detail and know where are the spots that my kid is particularly vulnerable? Where are the places where he's going to be?
Or she's going to be more reactive or less reactive. My son, oddly enough, we moved all the way across the country and he was like, whatever, this is our new house. Like that kind of stuff, right? The mindset normally like that would, you know, totally panic. A kid on the spectrum. My kid's odd. One of those things.
That's the one thing he doesn't like. He can just go to, this is our new house now and this is where we live and he my.
stuff And he was fine And I remember when he, he started a, he changed schools and he was really young. Um, we moved to a different school district and the autism consultant for the program, like videotaped, like getting off the bus and walking into the building and was super anticipatory of like, this is going to be hard for him.
And he was just like, what, [00:34:00] whatever. And he just strolled on in and that was his new home. Um, so Right. That kind of generalized. kids On the spectrum are going to have this reaction, not mine. Oh, know, tell, you know, right?
My son has amazing, he has no idea about the passage of time, but he knows when, if I said it's.
We're doing this at quarter after whatever, when it's quarter after, whatever, we better be doing things that literalness. Yeah. Literal You said he's got that one. What you said, we were doing this at this time, which is why I never tell him what time we're doing anything.
Um, but yeah. But again, it's, it's knowing kind of where your kids' superpowers are, where are their vulnerabilities and Right.
If your kid's really good about Right. Noticing the clock and seeing that it's time. Let them have that. Right. You don't have to kind of baby them into the, well, you got five minutes, but if your kid needs that, we've, you've got five minutes, then, then do that. Um, it's not enabling, it's those supportive [00:35:00] measures.
It's the things. Yeah. And that's need to be successful. That's that again, key one that, that's to dig in later about that enabling versus supporting or enabling versus accommodating. Yeah. And yeah, that's, that's a big one. Uh, but yeah, I do remember what I was going to say though, is. the idea of Like you said, the burden on parents is to figure out what, what's going to be the problem areas for their, uh, son or daughter.
And I think it's also important, like in the long run for them to understand that about themselves, right? At some level to recognize, oh, I don't do well in noisy, crowded situations, or I can be in here for about 10 minutes, but then I'm going to need to take a break. Right? So then they, you help them learn strategies over time if they can, you know what I mean?
You take advantage of the things that, that, uh, like I said, leverage the things that, that they're good at. Like say if your son's really good at. Time telling or knowing when a certain time comes, then yeah, you can, you can use that. But you can help him learn to use it to his advantage. Right.
Rather than it being something that that's a problem. Yes. Instead it being Yeah. That it being too distracting. Um, I want to talk about [00:36:00] you, you talked about that kind of front loading space for Right. Knowing, Hey, we have to go do this loud, noisy thing. Um, we used to make my son go to my daughter's band concerts, We don't want to go either. But, uh, we all had to go. Um, but it was letting him know not only, Hey, it's going to be this long. We're just going to watch your sister play, then we can leave. Or he could leave. So it's not just right. Recognizing when they might have that. When they've kind of reached capacity. But I really like to make sure that, um, you know, my own kid and then the kids I work with have their, I always call it their exit strategy.
Yeah. Like where's the place that you can go? Um, so then everyone knows like if my kid gets up and walks somewhere, that's because I've told him that that's where he needs to go. Right. If you need to walk, then you're going to go walk over here. If you need a quiet space, you can go down the hall. There's a room there.
If you can get [00:37:00] all that kind of prearranged, I think that helps reduce the anxiety too, because the situation is anxiety inducing enough, but then they don't know where to go or how to fix. It makes, yeah, there's no plan B or no exit plan or something. You've got exit plan. Yeah, it's exit strategy. Like, hey, you know, if you're at the family gathering and it gets too much right, it's okay if you go down and go to grandma's room for a while and.
Just sit in there and do whatever you need to do. Um, I think yeah, or bring like, Hey, you need, you know, somebody noisy place, maybe bring your noise canceling headphones or make sure you're dressed comfortably, we're going to be outside, or something like that. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, but yeah, I like the idea of, you know, particularly on vacations, I, I use this one a lot for some reason, like, have a plan B, so the, the rest of the family doesn't feel like they're being held hostage.
Like, okay, well, you know, if they're old enough, can your send her daughter just stay back at the hotel and, and hang out at the resort or something like, or can you. If they're, you want to go to a museum and they don't want to go, or they get bored, then they can go out and sit on that bench right in the lobby or something like that and we'll come get [00:38:00] you, or, you know, have strategies and, and have, uh, accommodation tools, I guess, whether that's their cell phone or noise canceling headphones or music or a video game or movie to watch.
Yeah. Whatever works. Yeah. Whatever works. I did, I, I had a, a young woman that I was working with that, that really did have pretty high levels of anxiety and they were going. On vacation to a place that was familiar, but they were staying in a different, this time they were going to stay in an Airbnb instead of the hotel that they normally stayed in.
And she was like, but I don't, I don't know that place. And it really, so we just kind of set it out in advance and, and parents knew that the strategy was, the minute you get there, go find your space, go find the space that you can go to. Find out how far you can, she was older and, and was able to, you know, go outside if she wanted.
Right. But here's the [00:39:00] parameters. If you're going to take a walk, go walk over here. Like, they had it all figured out before they did anything. So when that situation arose, then she already had the game plan and she knew, oh, okay, I can just, I'm just going to go take my walk now. And everyone was, and that's a great example of that frontloading idea, right?
To try to make a plan in advance when, when possible and try. Yeah. Because trying to figure it out right in that moment and Right. We know when, when you're in that fight or flight and people are like, well, try this, try that. And Right. They're just throwing stuff at you and when you can't think clear, like everything's going to sound stupid and, and your kid will probably tell you that, that's really stupid.
I don't want to do that. But if you can make those. Thoughts and strategies way ahead of time when emotions are not dysregulated. So, it's just so much better for everyone. Yep, for sure. All right. Well we covered some ground, Shari. We have, we're good. But yeah, so I guess for our listeners out [00:40:00] there, if, if you have any questions or concerns or even things that you would like, Shari and I, I'm sure we could do this again in the future.
Yep. At some point. So let us know. Um, and I will put some information in, uh, notes about how to get ahold of us or whatever. But, um. Certainly, yeah, let us know. Uh, if you have any questions or concerns or comments about anything we've said, definitely, um, let us know what we can do to, to answer any your specific questions.
Mm-hmm. Um, but thank you so much. You're welcome. I, I appreciate, welcome taking the time to do this, and I hope this is helpful for parents out there who are Me too. You know, really, it's, it's significant challenge for sure. And, um, you know, but at the same time, I mean, I, I, I don't like it to be all like doo and gloom, you know what I mean?
There's some wonderful things too, particularly I think if you see. That. Yeah. Their brains are just different. It doesn't mean it's wrong or bad, it's not necessarily built well for the, how we've set up society, but maybe we're not doing it that great either, and, you know what I mean? Yeah. So, so, uh, there may be some real things that we could learn from and, [00:41:00] and make adjustments to for ourselves.
Yeah. But absolutely. Well, anyway, so thanks again, Sherry. Appreciate it. And, uh, we
thanks you too.
