Podcast Episode 5 - Transcript
[00:00:00] Welcome everybody to another podcast, today I have joining me again, Shari Murray, who has done a podcast with me in the past. And let me just turn over you, Shari, to give a really quick introduction of yourself and we can go from there. Right, again, my name is Shari Murray. Ed and I have worked together for like 12 years now.
I am both a professional that works with families with kids on the spectrum and other neurodivergency titles - I never know what to call that. I also have a son who is on the spectrum, he is 27 and he is well on the spectrum. So I've got 27 years of living this. Yep. That amazing combination of both personal experience and personal parenting experience and also professional training behind that and specializing in working with Neurodivergence and parents and families of neurodivergent kids. So what amazing combination. So I always value your experience for [00:01:00] that really strong combination of professional and personal experience. So thank you for joining me again. Certainly. My pleasure.
So today we were thinking to revisit that idea of exit strategies or a version of front loading, I guess what you mean by exit strategy is having a plan in place that if your neurodiverse son or daughter is in a situation where it's going to be potentially stressful,
that they have a plan B and maybe a plan C in terms of how to manage what's going on. So if they are starting to get overwhelmed, or are starting to get sensory overload, or just stressed out, or hitting their limit of social interaction, that they would then have a plan on what they can do to get a break or take a break or take space. So we were referring to that as exit strategies, if things are getting tough, that they have a way to escape the stressful situation. But the key to all of this is having a plan in advance for that as much as possible. You and I, Shari, have been talking about this and we usually [00:02:00] talk about in the context of a vacation plan, right?
Like if a family's out on a vacation, there may be things that their son or daughter does not want to do or does not want to participate in, or they are anxious about the trip in general and are having some pre-anxiety about it, and then maybe that leads to refusal to want to go on the trip. But again, bringing that back down into just day-to-day, we can look at this from, Hey, you're going on a big vacation, there's a lot of pre-planning you can do to help that go better, let alone to how do we narrow that down to even just the day-to-day practice that might make things go quite a bit easier for your neurodivergent son or daughter in various types of situations, whether it's a family dinner, or having family and friends over, or whatever the circumstance might be that might create some anxiety for them.
There may be some good strategies, well, I would say there are some good strategies that we've seen work over the years. Let me correct that, that we going to discuss today. So that was a long, drawn out introduction to the topic, but, so here we go. Yeah. So [00:03:00] let's, let's jump right in. What do you think, where do you want to start?
Do you going to start vacation, go big and then work our way down, or start small and work our way up? What do you think? Yeah, actually I was just going to add a little bit of flavor to that, if you don't mind. Oh, please, please. You know, I think what's really helpful about the exit strategy beyond just providing this space for your kid to go to is it also pushes parents to pre-plan themselves.
And it also forces parents to acknowledge that this is a real thing and that your kids really need this. And it's not just manipulation and it's not just, I'm trying to get out of stuff, it really forces parents to shift their own mindset into, you know, hey, going to grandma's house
house isn't that big a deal for them, but maybe it is for your kid. And having to recognize that and have those conversations, I think is a secret benefit, if you [00:04:00] will, to thinking about exit strategies. Right. That idea of like, say maybe a simple, you use the example of like going to a grandparent's house
Like a family dinner or just a regular family thing that you do. It's easy for parents to get in that mindset of they are just being resistant. Like they, they just going to stay and play video games. They don't want to go do this family thing, they don't want to participate in the family activity.
But it may be more, that there are things about that, that are anxious for your son or daughter, that if you as a parent can recognize that and validate it, and then try to find a solution that works to not necessarily let them off the hook completely - although sometimes that's the right thing to do,
maybe it's just going to be a rough day and it'll be better to not take them on that trip to grandma's or whatever. But, to try to find a way to work together to make that comfortable, or comfortable enough, and that might mean finding some compromises between, and again, we just go right into that as an example, if they are at grandma's house and the aunts and uncles are [00:05:00] there, or cousins or whatever, and maybe it's a socially noisy or socially intensive situation, that they would have a space planned out that they could take a break to go to.
Like parents may say, Hey, we expect you to sit down for dinner. And, that's a whole other discussion about the food and how to manage the food. Right? But, assuming that's a whole other podcast, plan about Yes. Everything we talk about could be a whole other podcast.
Whole other podcast. Yes. So, have patience with us over the next 30 or 40 years, maybe we'll cover most of the topics. We get all of the topics out. But that idea of there's some requirements, Hey, we really want you to sit down for dinner, and if you're starting to feel like you're getting overwhelmed and there's a place you can go, you can go back into the family room where it's quieter, and you can sit for 10, or 15, 20 minutes, and then come back out when you're ready.
And it could be a simple plan like that, or if you need to go outside and walk around or hang out on the swing, swing in the backyard, or, whatever it might be that there is a plan, that if they are starting to feel overwhelmed, that they know what they [00:06:00] can do that won't get them in trouble, so to speak.
And really you can front load that with the entire family to say, Hey, if Sally needs a break, she's going to go outside and sit on the back porch and, that's okay. That's just a way for her to calm down and be able to come back in when she's ready or something along those lines.
I was just going to say, I like that you added that point about telling the rest of the family. I know from I working with a family, a very large family and their regular weekend thing was a large family lunch. And it was just so much for this kid and I happened to be there for one of them and then he went outside and then I could coach the rest of the family through
they are like, we should go out there and talk to him. I'm like, no, that's exactly what he doesn't want to that opposite. That's the part that's overwhelming him, is everybody talking to him. And I'm like, just give him space. He'll come back when he's ready and you guys have to be okay with that, it's not [00:07:00] personal, it's not anything,
it's just, being peppered with questions even though they are well intentioned and everyone loves this kid and it's just too much. So, yeah. Yeah. And that's what prepping those kind of, again, the reverse opposite of what, uh, neurotypical reaction may be. Like, oh, they are having a hard time. Let me go sit down and talk to them.
Yeah. Right. That's what we, that's what maybe a neurotypical person would want or would hope for in that situation. But if your neurodivergent kid is trying to escape the social pressure, or just the noise or the pressure to perform or mask, or whatever, then yeah, that's the last thing that's helpful is the people then being concerned and going out and, Hey, are you okay?
Or, what's going on? You okay, what do you want? Let's talk about it. Yeah. That's just going to be like, ah, more pressure! No, I'm trying to escape! And then, you know, then it escalates into looking more upset, then everybody gets more concerned. Right, right. It just woo. Yeah. Yep. So, and then it blows up into something, unfortunate, I guess, and put it that way.
So yeah, that is an important ingredient, if [00:08:00] you can, if you're in a situation where you have understanding friends or family, then, or even if they are not so understanding, the idea of letting them understand what the plan is as much as possible. Now, obviously there's
sometimes you don't going to draw that much attention to the situation but to give everyone, as much as possible, what the game plan is, then that will be helpful. So if something does start to happen that no one is then going to react in a way that's going to make it more awkward or more difficult.
So Yes. More complicated. Yeah. And I think parents really have to set the tone there that, if you've discussed that with the family and, if the kid goes and takes the exit strategy that the parents have to be like, no, it's fine. Just be casual about it like it's not a big deal.
That's like, it's okay. Yeah. Everybody, you know, this is fine. This is normal. This is normal here. This okay, that thing, we are fine. He's fine. Everybody's fine here. Let's not worry about it, because if the parents, even if they are okay with the exit strategy and they've told the family, [00:09:00] if they are not okay with the exit strategy or if they feel embarrassed or whatever those parents may feel then it's not going to go very well.
And your kid's probably going to feel bad about doing it if then you feel bad about the fact that they feel bad. Right. It just becomes this vicious cycle so we just all got to get on the same page and be okay with it. Is it ideal? Not always, but... right. But it may make a trip like that more, possible. If you think about do you really want them at this family gathering, once a week,
yeah, it's important. It's what we do as a family. It's an expectation that we are there and we like to be there, it's something that we do as a family that we enjoy. But if you make that hard or you don't get the right accommodations in there, then what happens is it becomes a negative experience and then your son or daughter won't want to go, or they are going to go already primed up to have a problem,
or have a challenge there. So again, as a parent, you might think about that there are trade offs for sure, like maybe, [00:10:00] this taking space, or maybe he or she will go isolate for 30 minutes, or an hour but they are able to be there, right? So it's like, Hey, there's a win in that.
And it, and it makes it more comfortable for them to go, they are more willing to go in the future, and it, and it doesn't hold the whole family hostage. Like they can still go do this gathering and not feel like somebody has to stay back at home with their son or daughter because they can't handle being there, or they are refusing to go.
So, hopefully the reward at some level for that level of accommodation is the ability to do the thing that you going to do as a family. Yeah. And it's kind of giving up that, I don't going to call it a dream, but I mean, when you have a kid on the spectrum or with any sort of neurodivergency,
things aren't going to be neurotypical, because your kid's not neurotypical, you're not going to have typical family, well, you can, but not everything's going to be [00:11:00] typical. And you got to let that piece go too, that, Hey, we are going to be there but we are going to do it in a little different way and that's got to be fine with everybody.
What's the most important thing? That they are there, or that they are there and they do it in some pre-assigned manner. Right. Some culturally normative way or something. Yes. Like that. And again, that goes back to understanding neurodiversity, having a thorough understanding of what it means as a parent, and then not only that, tailoring it to your specific son or daughter and what their specific needs are.
And then again trying to rally all the troops around family, friends, whatever, to understand that, to educate them as well. So it, it is a lot to put on parents, right? But like, any other kind of, I hate to use the word disability, but obviously it is at some level, or at least it's not fitting into normal normative cultural things, but that idea of you're going to be on a different track [00:12:00] and that's okay.
And help other people understand that as much as possible but without over divulging about your son or daughter that they may not be comfortable with you sharing it so much. Yeah. So and so super overwhelmed by all you yeah, we don't, right. It's just, Hey, they are going to go have some quiet over there.
Like, yeah. Yeah. You don't have to divulge all the secrets there. It's just Right. For sure. Yeah. So again, depending on what level of insider information is important, but generally speaking, if it is something like that, some level of insider information is good, right? Like some front loading for the family...
yeah. Absolutely. ... is important. But again, I go down rabbit holes of how I can start thinking about all the complications of over divulging versus under divulging and all that, right? But, so you'll have to take the temperature of the situation yourself and know a little bit about how the family might respond, or if it's a group of friends or whatever, you know, just trying to figure out all that kind of stuff.
But, in the hopes of not overcomplicating it let's take a step back and say... talk it [00:13:00] over with your son or daughter, give them as much notice as is appropriate for them that this event is going to happen, and then strategize with them about, hey, if you are starting to feel overwhelmed or find out about what part of that might be overwhelming for them, if they have that kind of insight into what is difficult for them in that situation.
And some kids will have insight and some kids won't. But, the idea is to try to have a collaborative kind of conversation with them about how do we make this situation go better for you, and let's make a plan, and let's have an exit strategy for you. And, as a parent figure out how much of that information to divulge in advance to the rest of the people involved in that situation.
Yeah. You know, it's interesting, my son was diagnosed when he was like two and a half, three so we've always been doing this. I know it's, it feels a lot different for families when their kid gets diagnosed a lot later in life. Because it's a huge adjustment for [00:14:00] everyone to get on board with that. But I know for us, I'm just going to use my own personal experience here, because everyone has a certain level of awareness of my son and how his autism expresses itself, we are now to the point where the places we go and the people that we are with for the most part, kind of automatically just create that space for him.
I know when we go to my mom's house my son just kind of takes over this bedroom that's just his space and my mom makes sure it's all set up for him. It's all arranged and everyone just already knows or will ask, what kind of space does he need?
Or where should we allow him to go? Like, what's good? So I think when that family just has enough awareness, then they'll start to treat it as a very normal part of, Hey, that's what this kid needs. And you'd mentioned like other types of disabilities, it would be no different than [00:15:00] if your child needed a wheelchair, right?
You would kind of advance out and say, oh, you know, are there the ramps that my kid needs, or, yeah. Make all those accommodations in place. This is really no different in, right, right. Sometimes it's a little bit more hidden or it shows up in social emotional ways and that's where Yeah. Right. It's not such the physical space, but, but yeah.
Right. But you got to think a little, yeah. And I think like you're saying. For the parents, I think where parents get kind of snuck up on by this a lot of times is if the real autism and or attention deficit, the neurodivergent symptoms start to show up in adolescence. Like usually it's that end of middle school into high school where, beforehand they seemed articulate, they were interested, they were bright and everybody, they were fun to talk to and all that kind of stuff.
Then all of a sudden this social pressure thing starts showing up and then it feels like something is dramatically changed and they just think their kid [00:16:00] is now in oppositional teenager who is way too into video games, or something like that, or Cos play or, so, yeah, and I think that's the hardest part sometimes is when parents have given meaning to those behaviors that isn't
the diagnosis. When you're assuming that they are just being a jerk or they just don't care or they are addicted to their video games. And, if you've already had that labeling of all those things, it's really hard to then shift and to think about it in a, you know, no, this has nothing to do with defiance, or willfully being disobedient, which is probably defiance, but that
it's part of who they are. And, I think, really understanding not just whatever diagnosis your kid has, but your kid's version of that diagnosis, is so critical here because that informs then what are situations that we are likely going to come [00:17:00] up with, that they are going to need this exit strategy.
You're going to have a sense of then what to then make the exit strategy the more you understand, because every kid doesn't have the same need and they don't have the same recovery way. Yeah. And then again, another layer of complication of course is as a parent you may feel like you are then accommodating, or you are reinforcing this negative behavior that you see,
like, they are being rude socially by hanging out in the room. And so it feels like you don't going to give them an exit strategy because it's just you being okay with them being rude to their grandparents, or the company that's there, or something like that. Again, so back to your earlier point, which was, if you don't know what's going on and you don't understand what's happening as a parent, you're probably going to default to, this is just rude, oppositional, yeah
lazy, or addiction to technology or something like that. , Yeah. they are being bad. It automatically labels whatever they are doing [00:18:00] as bad. And, and man, that just ramps up the resistance too, right? If you're, you're already feeling overwhelmed and then someone's like, you're being bad. Yeah.
Because you're already doesn't really bring the temperature down there. Yeah. Because they are already getting to their fight, flight, freeze, or fawn response. And then if you start criticizing them, or shaming them for not being social, or for, not wanting to talk to their friends who came over, or not wanting to, be nice to grandpa, or something like that, right?
Then it just adds that next level of overwhelm. So it's likely to go into a meltdown, right? The more of that kind of approach you take, or I'm going to take your phone away. If you're not, if you're going to go sit in this room and be on your phone, then I'm going to take it away. So therefore you'll go back out and be social all of a sudden, right?
Yes. You'll just, no. Can I, can I take us on a wee little tangent here? Yeah, please do. Why not? That will be another podcast. It'll just spur another one. This [00:19:00] idea of social, I remember years and years ago, years ago, I went to one of those huge autism conferences. That time I went as a parent i wasn't remotely thinking in the professional sense.
I was just pure parent there. And I attended one of the breakout sessions and it ended up being way more influential in my professional life because my son doesn't care about being social. He doesn't care about having friends. But that concept that parents of neurodivergent kids have to understand that their social looks different.
And sometimes just being in the same room alongside other people is as social as they can do. And I can't begin to tell you how many times, and I'm sure you have too Ed and the family's like, well, they are not doing social the way I think they should or the way I want them to, [00:20:00] or the way I did when I loved hanging out with my friends.
Great. Your son doesn't. Right. And that's okay. They get to define what their social looks like and there's always limits around that, like you we don't allow them to, or encourage them to be rude, but they get to be who they are and they get to experience life the way that's meaningful for them.
And just being in the same room may be enough, just chatting with someone online may be enough socially for them. So, sorry, that was just a a we little tangent. But yeah. No, I think we compare our childhoods to their, you know, generationally so many things have changed, right? Like there's so much more social interaction that happens online that's legitimate.
I know sometimes it can feel like it's, to us it's artificial, or it doesn't have the same meaning. But, particularly to a kid who has a hard time with face-to-face stuff, then a lot of times the online community, whether that's, you know, playing a game together like a video gaming together, or [00:21:00] chatting or a Yeah.
Discord channel or something like that, where, they can have a whole other social credibility that they wouldn't have as easily in IRL Right. In real life or whatever. Yeah. So, and it's amazing the amount of parents that will talk about, hey, I can overhear my kid when he is with these gaming with his buddies.
And sometimes those buddies are in completely different countries, but they are laughing, they are joking, they are doing all these kind of typical social things and they are like, why can't they do that in real life? And I'm like, because there isn't a- when you're gaming with someone, you're going to just be talking about gaming.
There's, it's comfortable, it's predictable it's... right. Part of that, the thing about that's like if they were a really good basketball player, they'd be out at the park shooting hoops with their buddies and they'd be laughing and joking around and having a good time. It's just not, they are not outside playing basketball
they are doing their game, yeah, in a different format, in a different venue. It's [00:22:00] just as legitimate. Yeah. It just reminds me, my son, my younger son, he was a real gamer and so man, he was just laughing and having a good time. Yeah. And sometimes they'd get frustrated with each other but for the most part, my older son and I are like, I wish I had that much fun doing anything.
You know what I mean? Yes. I don't enjoy anything blast, he's having a blast and man, that, that sounds like some pure joy coming out of there. And in fairness to him, he had some of those friends that he knew from school and some of them he has been friends with for his whole life that lived in other states and they've never met,
so it's so interesting. But it was induring long-term friendships. And again, yeah, obviously you have to be careful of the predators out there, but for the most part, those kind of relationships I think can be very meaningful and really helpful, particularly if the in-person stuff is really difficult.
Think we obviously as parents still going to try to help them develop the social skills and the in-person skills, but it's way different than it used to be. And again, this is a different path and maybe in some ways they are adapting to the [00:23:00] future better than we are. Yeah, I think so.
Yeah. May be, evolving in a way that may benefit them more than people who don't have that skillset. And it's interesting I worked with another young man who his anxiety is just through the roof, he's afraid to go do anything, to leave the house essentially.
So he had a pretty rich online life and the parents were a little worried because he probably was a little more susceptible to being bullied. But what we found with over time is him being allowed to have that space, in his online socialness that he developed a lot of really pretty impressive social skills.
And I remember him telling me about, Hey, this person was being mean to another person on their Discord server, and, and he's like, and I had to call him out and say, Hey, that's not how we talked to people. He is, he ended up kicking that person off his server. , And, but he did it all in this like super appropriate way.
He had a conversation with him. He said, Hey, these are the rules here. This is how we treat each other. You know, you [00:24:00] can't be here if you can't do that. And that was a pretty impressive social skill it wasn't anything we sat down and like, this is how you handle this. He just over time figured it out.
Yes, that's one of those things that, again, we don't want to by default, undervalue those relationships, right. By default, we don't going to do that. We still going to be careful that they are hanging out with the right, quote unquote, you know, good influences and stuff like that as much as possible. But at the same time, don't by default, assume that that's bad or that's a problem of some kind, because it could be really the primary source of social interaction and maybe that's all they need.
You talked about, sometimes sitting in the same room with somebody doing a little parallel play, so to speak. Like, you're on your phone, they are.. Yeah, they are on theirs, and they are just, that's enough for them to be around another human being yeah. Work together and like, yeah.
What do you want for us? Yeah. What do you mean we spent time together? Or like watching movie together? Yeah. Or, or watching shows on tv. I mean, all that stuff is stuff that [00:25:00] typical people do, parallel play sometimes. Right? And maybe you talk about the show afterwards, and maybe that's an opportunity to do that.
But at the same time, their social... what do you want to call it... thermometer, or social meter, can fill up really quick, really fast. And maybe that's all they need, maybe a little dab will do them. And they don't need a whole intense hour social life. I remember me and my friends, we'd go roam the neighborhood and ride our bikes and do whatever watching TV was the default after everybody had to go home, you know what I mean?
We weren't talking, we weren't interacting the whole time. Right. You were just sitting around in your friend's basement watching whatever. Yeah. Like we didn't do anything. And it's important to talk about because I think it can be a useful exit strategy. And I think parents are like, well if, if they can go online and talk to a person they've never met, why can't they sit here and talk to grandma,
and the explanation is because the guy that he's playing games with isn't going to ask him how school is and does he have a girlfriend? Right. And you don't [00:26:00] play sports. Yeah. Why don't you like sports? Why don't you do that? Right. I mean, the other world is way more predictable. Right. He knows what his buddy's going to, what they are going to talk about.
because they are going to talk about the game that they are playing and, and that's super comfortable. Yeah. He has some status, he has a knowledge base, yeah. He has some expertise or maybe some clout in that Yeah. Knows what he's talking about is comfortable. Um, and kinda like us.
Yeah. If we are talking to somebody who understands,, kind of like you and I talking like we can talk real easily because we have a lot of similar, Yeah. Right. We know a lot of experiences. Yeah. We know a lot of the same things. Yeah. Yep. and , I know for my son that's the main reason.
I mean, he, he's so funny because he, he loves it when people come over and he has to come out and say hello to them or if he doesn't, he's never met them to who's that? But then he exits. He's had enough, you doesn't want you to come, he doesn't want you to come with him because
the minute someone starts to ask him, what are you [00:27:00] doing? What do you like? Well, he freaks out and he doesn't know how to answer those questions. He doesn't know what the right answer is to what's your favorite Pokemon or whatever, his answer is "all of them" because that gets him off stage really quickly.
So it's interesting having a son who's a level two on the autism scale there and quite in the middle of level 2 because I can see how he works. And then I know that kids who may be level 1 probably have the exact same kind of emotional processes to that, but they have a little more social awareness to know that you're not just be like, okay, and then you just leave.
Right. But they still have that, like, I'm freaked out now. I don't know what this random person, you know what Uncle Steve is going to ask me here. And they are worried about having the right answer, [00:28:00] or the correct answer, or the socially appropriate answer, whatever. Yeah. Socially appropriate. Yeah. Whatever Uncle Steve's looking for, like, what am I supposed to say here?
Right. Right. And they would love to just also step out, so we've got to give them that ability to step out and remind Uncle Steve, Hey. Chill. Yeah. You know, and, and something I saw a YouTube video. I'll have to dig this up. Maybe post it somewhere. You post it somewhere on my website or something.
It's like 20 questions that drive someone on the spectrum crazy or something like that. I was like, wow, this is awesome, because some of them drive me crazy. So for sure. Like what's your favorite food? Like right now or today? This week. Yeah. It depends. I love a lot...
I mean, so my answer is a lot, I like everything, right? Yeah. But it's hard for me like, what's your favorite movie, or what's your favorite song, or what's your favorite kind of music? That kind of stuff drives me. Yeah. What's favorite? Artists options are so huge. Yeah. And I'm like, I love a lot of different music, you know what I mean?
It's hard for me to nail it down to one thing. So it is hard for me [00:29:00] in those situations. I could probably come up with just a rote answer, you know what I mean? And then like mask that that's a hard question for me and pretend Yes. That I have no idea. Yeah. What a good answer is to that, right?
Yeah. Yep. And then trying to guess, is this person, are they more into country or are they more into rock? Are they more into what, what Yeah. Like what impress them the most. You know what I mean? And so what answer will offend them? Yeah. Why do rap?? So that's where we can also love rap. Yeah. Or, or hard speed metal or something,
Are they going to be offended? I don't know, like death metal- yeah! But yeah, so like those kind of questions are hard. And, and again, I think that idea of, it's so much easier if you're asking, again, a whole other podcast, how to ask questions, right? Like give them two or three options instead of wide open, open-ended questions, because then their brain goes to all the details, details-up processing, what we've talked about before as well.
And it's hard to draw a quick conclusion on what your favorite thing is, or even I heard someone talking about that pain scale in the hospital, you know that one, like, are you a 1 out of 10 and the smiley face and the [00:30:00] angry face. Or like, that's an impossible question in relation to what? Yeah. Or what does that mean?
Or is a 5 to me a 5 to you? Or, you know what I mean? Yeah. How do we, how do we even know? And again, our neurotypical brains make a lot of assumptions and screen out a lot of the details of that, because really, we have no idea what a 5 on the pain scale to me would be like for a 5 to the pain scale for you.
You know what I mean? Like Yeah. You know, it's just impossible to be inside somebody else's skin. 10. Yes. So we make a lot of assumptions about things like that, and we can just screen all that out and give an answer like, yeah, I'm at a 7 right now. Okay. That's, that's pretty tough. That's throwing up over so, right.
And a lot of times it's, you might be like, I'm at a 1. This is no problem at all. It's just a 1 for me, but how do we know? Right. I know my nephews, my neurotypical nephews, my father-in-law, so their grandfather will ask them, you know, career-wise, what are they thinking? And [00:31:00] one of them threw down some answer once,
and so later I asked my husband, I'm like, does he really going to do that? And he's like, no, he's just trying to get, you know, grandpa to shut up. He's like, he's just giving him an answer that he thinks grandpa wants to hear. And then grandpa's like, Ooh, that's awesome. And then he gets to exit stage left there and, and be done with it.
And, and so I'm like, neurotypical kids do that just as much. , My son's newest thing though that I was just talking to another parent, and I told them what my son said and she's like, oh my gosh, she's like I think that is what my daughter is saying. So if my son's doing something, I'm like, oh, I like that too,
he'll be like, no, I want to like it by myself. Yeah. They just don't have that same Ooh, we are having the shared interest. He is like, yeah, I don't care if you like it, I going to like it by myself. So yeah, you're kind of stealing my idea here or something like that, you know what I mean? This is my thing, so just you can't have it,
this one's mine. I thought it first yeah. In [00:32:00] fact, if you like it, I'm not going to like it anymore. Yes. I don't going to like it anymore. It's gross. Yep. Alright, well we should probably come back to some strategies stretch on strategy. Strategy. Huge tangent. Sorry about that. That's, that's the trick about this is that it is easy because there's so much to cover that it's easy to go down all kinds of different directions.
So, which is fine. Yeah. There's all these nuance. It's so, should we have the strategy for developing an exit strategy? Like what's the Yeah. Maybe that will keep us focused. Yeah, so to me, I think. Again, it goes back to the big picture, understand neurodiversity, then understand how it applies to your son or daughter.
And sometimes you can't know in advance what's going to trigger, even call, call those landmines, right? There may be some things out there yeah you don't know that are out there, but you can, over time, start to see patterns and talk to them about it. And some kids will have insight into it, some won't.
But the fact that you're sitting down and saying, Hey, let's look at this situation. And you don't have to say, you don't have to forecast that it's going to be bad. Like, hey, this is going to be a really rough situation for you. I mean, [00:33:00] don't front load the bad, you're probably going to fall apart here. So, so you going to go, this is a situation that could have a lot of noise or a lot of people, or a lot of social situations
So, let's look at this in advance and let's try to create some strategies around what will make this more comfortable for you. And I like, I like that term. What will make it more comfortable for you. Yeah, what can help you get through it. And I like having, I, I mean, I know for us, and again.
I've been doing this since my son was very little. The exit strategy is the default setting. Like it's always a known possibility that we are going to need too. And sometimes, it's just my husband and I , okay, well if he, if he needs to, my son's a pacer, so if he needs a spot to pace, like that's the first thing we do.
If we are somewhere, where could he go, where he can pace and not be disruptive. Often we tend to sit in the back of auditoriums, then he can pace behind us, we know what's going [00:34:00] on. So it's sometimes it's us letting him know, Hey, you can go, you can go walk over there if you want to.
It's just giving him that permission, and then he knows he can just get up and go do that when he needs to. And everyone's not going to, what's he doing? Where's he going? And it's true because sometimes they may not have the awareness that they are starting to get overwhelmed, but you're seeing it. Yeah.
Coming, you know what I mean? So again, that Yeah. Ways to, to invite them to, to do that. And another, again, this is a complicated sidetrack, but that idea of having a menu of coping strategies, right? Like pacing might be one. Yeah. Finding a place that's quiet, bringing noise canceling headphones, having a video or something you can watch on your phone if you need to just tune out for a while, you know what I mean?
But that idea of having a bag full of things that they can do or a of a menu. They have a menu they can choose from that are approved or, parental approved coping things or something like that. Yeah. And then you are right. And they learn the skill. Yeah, I do. They learned the skill that, hey, I'm starting to get [00:35:00] overwhelmed,
I need to do something, hey, mom or dad, can I go, I'm going to step out and go walk for a few minutes, i'll be right back or something. I'm going to go pace for a few minutes or something. Now that's, that's a pretty high level of self-awareness, but the idea that they want them to learn that, Hey, I'm getting overwhelmed and I need to do something, or else I'm going to, I'm going to have a hard time.
Right. This is going to, this is going to get very difficult. Yeah. So yeah. But that idea is an approved Yeah. The approved list of things to do. And then if it's a specific situation that you might say, Hey, we are going to this concert and it's going to be loud, we are going to sit by the exit, so if you need to step out and go walk for a few minutes, just check back in,
or just text me and let me know you're okay. Yeah. That kind of thing. And it's, I've got a family that I'm working with right now that, their daughter is a runner when she gets overwhelmed she runs away and that's not helpful because she just bolts. But in talking with them, I'm like, Hey, her knowing that she needs to get out of there is pretty productive.
Absolutely. But she's a runner and [00:36:00] the minute she gets overwhelmed her instinct is to, I got to get out of here. And she often just goes, and no one knows where she's going. And, and I talk to the parents. I'm like her knowing that, Hey, I'm overwhelmed. I need to get out of here, is a skill, like that's pretty great.
Like she knows that she needs to leave. So let's pre-plan that. If she needs to leave, if she's at home here, you have this parameter. You can be within our neighborhood, be gone for however long, but within 30 minutes, be at, they live in a neighborhood that has a park end up at the park.
We'll come get you, or we'll just drive by and, and check on you. But within 30 minutes, that's where you need to be. And, and really just kind of normalizing that whole thing. because I Right. I want them to encourage her. because they are like, well, she's got to stop running, and I'm like, no, she doesn't. She just needs to do it in a Yeah,
in a way that's safe, yeah, safe and appropriate. And that everybody knows what's going [00:37:00] on. I call it the playbook. So when something happens, yeah. You going to have a playbook that everybody knows what so you don't maybe even have to talk about it in that moment, or dissect it or process it.
You just know, okay, she just bailed out of the house, we know that the game plan is she will Stay in the neighborhood, we'll check on her in 30 minutes and everything will be okay. Right. Like, that's okay already everybody's ideal timing, but it's in the playbook, we understand what's happening.
So I think Its really helpful too because we forget you talked about that fight or flight space before. We forget that when you get that emotional elevation and that amygdala kicks in and you're doing one of those four things, you can't think clear. So that is not the time for to be game planning, what it's going to look like,
but if she knows, that's where she can go. If you've walked that with her, Hey, let's walk the neighborhood, let's show you where those boundaries are. Here's the bench we are talking about. Here's where we are going to look. If that becomes pretty [00:38:00] habitual, that's just where her brain will go.
Yeah. She'll know, right? Hey, I'm elevated. I know. Or to try and catch it before she gets to the... yeah. Yeah. And so that's the key, right? Because, and that's the whole, maybe the whole takeaway of this video is trying to do that in advance when everybody's calm, right? Yeah. That they are not in their fight, flight, freeze, or fawn mode.
That you make the plan before you get there. because as soon as you get there, it's too late, essentially. It's going to be hard to change. No one's thinking rationally, your son or daughter's on the edge, which then puts you more on the edge. Edge. Yeah. And then you've got, you know, that all that stress level just feeds itself and then everybody gets pulled into it and pretty soon,
a meltdown or something like that that's undesirable or less desirable is happening For sure. Yeah. Or they just, or they do just bolt because they don't know what else to do. I, I love having the, the options. You can go to this room, in this room, you can do these five things, or you can go to this space and do these [00:39:00] three things or Right.
Have that, some kids kind of instinctually know what they need. My son is one of them. He's, he's a sensory seeker, but he knows what thing he needs to go do. Not every kid has that. But yeah, and that's where the communication and, you as a parent also, just knowing the history, seeing what they react to, what the, where their, yeah, their weak spots are, what they tend to do fine with, what they tend to have issues with, even if you don't understand why that's an issue for them
so being aware or understanding why what they do works. If my son's pretty worked up, like really he jumps on a trampoline and I remember when he was younger and we had a trampoline in our house and people were like, well, doesn't that get him all worked up? And I'm like, Nope.
I'm like, that's the thing that calms him down. It might not work for your kid. But this is what he needs to do. And I don't have to understand the how it works or the why it works, just know that it works and get out of [00:40:00] their way and let them, let them do it. Yeah. I mean, mean it's safe and Right.
Exactly. The, just, so that's the main thing that it's safe. It may not be socially normative or whatever, but if it works, Yeah. And it's not harming anybody. And that's fine. I know like parents, like with pacing back and forth in the house or something like that. Right. They'll, they'll take a certain pattern and they'll just do the pattern over and over, like touch one wall, go back, touch the other wall, go back, touch the other wall.
And they'll do that for like hours sometimes or whatever. Uh, well, usually it's more like minutes, but Yeah. I've heard families like, he'll do that for an hour if we let him do it. He'll do it for an hour. Yeah. For like, is, is that okay? As long as it's not getting in the way of something else, it's not causing any harm,
and it's how they decompress from the day or do something. Or if they are stressed out for some reason, that's what they can do to reregulate. Yes, we going to support that kind of thing, even if it seems unusual to us in our neurotypical points of view on that, you know? So, yeah. I mean, my son is a mega stemer and he is really loud and he jumps around, he flaps his hands.
He, he does all the, the [00:41:00] classics. But that being said, right, he pretty much has freedom to do that. But right. The other night he busts out at 11 o'clock at night and is in the backyard doing that. No, dude, you can't do that right now. It's too loud. You can jump, you can do whatever, or you can go back into, you can go into your space and do that. You just can't do it outside. So it's okay to put parameters on here's where it's, okay, here's where it's not. He understands that he's, and then that menu, if one, one thing on the menu is not appropriate for this situation, then you have a couple other things.
Yeah. When it's at night. Yeah. This isn't one of your options. You got to find something different to do. Yep. Yep. For sure. And stemming is one of those whole other 20 podcasts. Yes. Stemming, stemming in the various ways that can show up and why it's important. And that, again, it's, it seems unusual to neurotypical people, but it can be really important to [00:42:00] reregulation and regulating, emotional states for kids on that are neurodivergent for sure.
Um, yes. So, and I also remind people, what's one of the oldest kinds of chairs? The rocking chair. A rocking chair. If that isn't stemming, I don't know what is. Right. That's just socially acceptable version. Just socially accept form of stemming. Yeah, you're still rocking back and forth, that's pretty stemmy.
I saw video of someone equating the peanuts, Charlie Brown, and showing that the kids were stemming all the time in that cartoon throughout there's all kinds of neurodivergent stuff that flows through that whole cartoon series if you look at it differently now.
But anyways, Linus had a blanket, no one cared. Yep. So, yep. All right. Well, I think strategy wise, again, just that idea of pre-planning, try to know, and understand and create options, we call it exit strategies that sometimes may mean just exiting the immediate overly stimulating [00:43:00] situation.
But yeah, sometimes it just go get a drink of water or something. Yeah. It doesn't have to be. Yeah. And it could just be alternative, you could call it something else. You don't have to call it an exit strategy because exiting has a implication that they are having to leave. But it could be, like a what would you call it?
Calming strategy, or a relaxing strategy, yeah, here's or here's safe space, here's regrouping. Yeah. A regrouping strategy. Yeah. I use that word. Let's just regroup. Yeah, reset. I think is a nice one. Now we are taking space or something. So I think it's really important if your kid has more kind of awareness of what they need to let them create the strategy.
I find that's often the problem. Parents like, well, I told 'em they could go do this. And I'm like, but that doesn't, the "this" you gave them isn't the thing that. Is helpful to them. What your kid's telling you is, I need a quiet space, and you've just put them in this other kind of space. Yeah, and I think that's part of that collaboration, right?
Like to get that collaborative relationship where we have the conversation in advance and one, I think it is so validating to anybody really to say, Hey, what would help this trip [00:44:00] go better for you? Yeah. Or what would help this vacation go better for you? What things would you like to do?
What things do you feel like you're not going to be as comfortable doing? And yeah. And let's find a way to, to make this work and give you some options for when you do need to take a break that you know what that is, and that we have it all planned out. And again, sometimes just having that strategy takes away a good chunk of the anxiety, right?
Yeah. Because they know they can use it. It's like, sometimes people have like a rescue med for anxiety, they may never take it, but the fact that they just have it have it, yeah. Is enough. Keeps the anxiety down because they know that there is something that will help. Right. So yeah, because that pressure of I've got to hold it together because I don't have any other option, is, yeah.
Feeling trapped or suffocated or back into a corner or something like that. But if they know it's really tough but step out. Yeah. You know, well I can, it's just psychologically way easier, right? Yeah. They can get through it oftentimes they can just work through it. And again, that really validates or acknowledges and that you as a parent are concerned that you care about their needs [00:45:00] and that you might not understand exactly why certain things are hard, but that you acknowledge that they are and that you're willing to do what you can to help, within certain parameters, obviously, that you're willing to help make that a little bit easier or go easier.
And that can be a real trust building thing between your parent and child to do that. Just as we would feel good about that as a neurotypical people that someone's concerned about our comfort and what can make something easier for us. Then I think that just is a real validation where, you know, a lot of times these kids don't get that right?
They are, yeah, always the ones that are causing the problems or getting in trouble. So, and I always like to ask the I always phrase the question of what do you already know works for you? I'm a solution focused therapist, so I always come from that kind of solution oriented space, but yeah, Hey, what do you know works for you?
And modeling that for parents. Like, that's the way to ask that question, Hey, what do you know works? And if they are having a hard time coming up with, again, that kind of open-ended question, if they are having a hard time coming up with answers, it's okay to [00:46:00] suggest here's four or five different things that I think might be helpful,
what do you think? Do you prefer a quiet space, or busy space? Do you, do you need, to go in, do you need to get it out? What do you already know about yourself? And then working with them, because as we know, if you just start throwing things at kids, they are just going to be like, Nope, nope, nope.
Yeah. And then get that kind of demand avoidance flavor where just because you suggested it now, you said it might've been their favorite thing. Yeah. Now it's like, no, it's the dumbest thing you've ever said. Yeah. Yep. Because you suggested it, then I'm not going to going to do it. And again that's why it's important to try to have these conversations when things are calm and in advance as much as possible.
So that there is a plan in place when it does like the emergency exit plan, you don't want to be trying to figure out how to get out of the building when the building's on fire, you going to know how to do that before. Yes, before you should look for the Yeah. We don't usually pay attention that on the airplane.
Yeah. But we don't pay attention to that stuff, you know? But anyways. Yeah. Well, and I've had conversations with parents before that they are like, well, if they are always [00:47:00] getting out of something, if they are always exiting, then they are not building their resiliency. And, and I think it's quite the opposite, right?
Knowing how to, knowing yourself and knowing what you need and then accessing that so you can get through something is literally the definition of resiliency is what do you have to do to get through it. It doesn't mean just enduring something, it means making it comfortable, making it work for you. So it mean kids building those skills of knowing, identifying when they need to exit, how they need to exit, using it, coming back.
That's what builds resiliency. Yep. This is a whole package of life skills that we could pick apart quite a bit. But the idea of that self-awareness that they are getting distressed and then being able to know what to do to help reregulate themselves and or co-regulate if the parent needs to be involved.
And then over time you can build up the ability to tolerate stuff. [00:48:00] Yeah. And again, maybe they never can tolerate certain things, but they know that about themselves, so they build their life in a way that they don't have to rely on these really difficult situations for them.
So it's a combination of one, helping them learn how to manage and cope, and then also how do they navigate these kind of situations. Like say if they are at a job and they have to be at a big conference meeting or something like that, that they know that's going to be hard for them but they have strategies that they utilize to help them get through that
yeah, as an adult. so that's, I remember the big picture is teaching the life skills, around all this. Yeah. So it's not all about learning to avoid and just being good at avoiding, I mean, some of that may be important to know. This is just a situation that really triggers me and I can't really handle it.
So I'm going to try to avoid that as much as possible. But if I do have to be in that situation, I've got a menu of skills I can use to get me through it. Yeah. Here's what I can do, here's how I know I can get through it. I remember the first time, um, we took our autistic son on an airplane and we were nervous wrecks because you're like, don't [00:49:00] know how this is going to turn out.
And we had noise canceling headphones and we had iPads full of stuff and snacks and the whole thing. And my son gets on an airplane, he looks out the window, the entire flight and is like the easiest flyer. And I remember that first time we flew it was way back in the day where you could upgrade to first class very cheaply.
So we were there and we had told the flight attendant our son has autism. And he came back later and he's like, ah I thought you said your son had autism. And we are like, well, yeah. He's like. You have that one? He's like, man, he behaves better than, you know, 99% of the people on airplanes. But we had no idea what he needed and we just figured out.
And that was a case where we probably overplaned. And he is a trooper. Like I would rather fly with him than anybody else. He is the easiest person to travel with he just gets in his seat, he doesn't want snacks, he doesn't want anything, he just wants to look on the window, that's all he needs, he needs a window seat and he is good to go.
So I think a [00:50:00] lot of times they can really step up and show us some skill that we never thought we saw. Yeah, and way better to over plan than to Yes. You know, recognize you're stepping into a minefield right. Of this flight. Yeah. I was much happier that I had a bunch of stuff that I didn't need than to be like, holy crap, I needed all these things and I didn't have them.
Yeah. So. But again that's all that I'm anticipating. And again, as a parent, just trying to be mindful and aware and plan ahead because a little bit of planning ahead, a little bit of prevention in this case usually saves a lot of, lot of heartache and headache, lot of heartache and problems.
Yep. For sure. So, and right. And he loves to fly, right? He's not afraid. We were probably like the first time and he was just like, whatever. Um, but yeah, so I think again, setting the parents, setting the tone and being okay and comfortable with it, you know? Yeah. Tells your kid, Hey, it's okay that you need to do this,
it's okay that this is too loud. Or My son, at my [00:51:00] daughter is dance recital recitals, like, are we done yet? Which elicited tons of laughter from all the other parents who were thinking the exact same thing just didn't know to say it out loud. Just didn't vocalize that. Yep. Yes. Just maybe not say it. Is this done yet?
Yeah. So, I guess the big, wrapping this up for now, try to understand and know as much as you can what the, where the landmines are going to be. And really big, big picture helping them recognize this in themselves and get better at the own, their own self-awareness. And then creating some strategies to help them navigate through these situations, and having quote unquote, exit strategies or a menu of options that they can do to reregulate and stay calm.
And, again I do think this is all important because as a parent, I see parents where they end up sacrificing so much of the things that they going to do, like on a vacation, yeah. They never go anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. They won't go or they get there and all their tours are canceled because their kid's having a [00:52:00] hard time.
And I think that's where you need an exit strategy, where the family can continue on doing the thing as much as possible. And the kid has a way to, either opt out of it and be safe in a pre-planned thing or find a way to cope during the tour where they are just kind of checked out with their headphones, watching a video while everybody else is looking out the boat, or doing whatever their thing is.
Yeah. Not being mad at them for that, but yeah, having a way to still be able to do what you going to do and need to do as a family and not let it become a source of resentment because that, and all the siblings will be resentful, you as a parent over time will also become resentful if you're not careful.
Right. Yeah. We can never go anywhere because your brother can't. Yeah. Your sister can't deal with it. Yeah. Well he always ruins it or she always ruins it or something like that. Right. That's really miserable. I know we did once we went to Disney when our co kids were younger and we flew out our old babysitter to come with us just so we had a third adult,
that if our son needed [00:53:00] to not do what we were doing there was a responsible adult who loved him dearly, who could stay with wherever he was, and then we could go do things with his sister so she got to have the experience that she deserved as well. So sometimes you got to suck it up and sometimes that's the exit strategy is having that extra hand.
, Yeah. Or if that's a family member or even sometimes bringing a friend along helps. Right. So some, yeah, some other person. But yeah, like I said, if you have the, a responsible adult where you, as the rest of the family unit can keep moving forward with what you planned, then I think that's huge.
Because again, it can really cause havoc on a, particularly on like a trip or a vacation, where there's a high expectation to do things and there's a lot of pressure, yeah, it's a new environment and there's all these new variables. You don't know where the landmines are because you haven't been there yet.
And so have an ability to have some sort of backup plan, plan A, plan B, plan C, and act as if it's going to go well, but if you, because you know, it'll, but don't be surprised when it does if you have to do plan B. Yeah. If you have to do plan B, [00:54:00] that's fine too, we'll just keep going. Right. So, yeah.
And it's, I think this is really, really important stuff. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Important for a lot of reasons, for the health and safety of your son or daughter, for your sanity, for your parenting relationship, for the relationship with the sibling, and the sibling with the, Oh yeah, the neurodivergent kid. All these things are super important to pay attention to and have plans to work around
so it doesn't become that your neurodivergent son or daughter is really calling all the shots, or you're scrambling to accommodate them in a way that prevents everyone else from being able to participate in family yeah doing activities or vacations and stuff like that. There are strategies and we can help with that.
Please reach out if you have questions, but Shari, thanks again. Like, I really appreciate this. Welcome and I know we'll probably keep doing this because it's fun to do for one, but again, every time we talk we open our mouths and we are like, oh, that's, yes, we come up with several other things that we need to talk about, so there's plenty, plenty of material [00:55:00] for sure.
So, yes, absolutely. Yeah, please reach out to either one of us if you have questions or concerns out there, and we'll do our best to get back with you and provide whatever level of service that we can. So thank you everybody. Have a good one and we will catch you on our next video. All right, thanks Ed.
Take care. Thanks Shari. Yep.
